Here I go again, trying foster a discussion.    I have a stork grizzle bird and he has mated with a blue bar hen.  Do the same color genetic rules apply when it comes to grizzle birds?  For instance, hens pass the color to the male babies and cocks pass the color the female babies.  Does this apply to a mating that involves a grizzle bird?  

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Here is an example.Bandit is stork grizzle and Bossy is a blue bar.  The first set of babies was a white bird with a blue bar saddle and a white bird with a sprinkling of grizzle.  Wouldn't the blue bar saddle have to be a cock?  Not sure about the white grizzle.

DynaBMan wrote:Here I go again, trying foster a discussion. I have a stork grizzle bird and he has mated with a blue bar hen. Do the same color genetic rules apply when it comes to grizzle birds? For instance, hens pass the color to the male babies and cocks pass the color the female babies. Does this apply to a mating that involves a grizzle bird?

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Here is an example.Bandit is stork grizzle and Bossy is a blue bar. The first set of babies was a white bird with a blue bar saddle and a white bird with a sprinkling of grizzle. Wouldn't the blue bar saddle have to be a cock? Not sure about the white grizzle.

I think grizzle is a modifier, not an actual color, so there's no way to tell who's a hen or cock. That's MY understanding anyway. You say Bandit is a grizzle but is he a Blue grizzle or a Red grizzle? If he's Blue and Mom is Blue, then they're both giving the color Blue to their babies..............

Lovebirds wrote:

DynaBMan wrote:Here I go again, trying foster a discussion. I have a stork grizzle bird and he has mated with a blue bar hen. Do the same color genetic rules apply when it comes to grizzle birds? For instance, hens pass the color to the male babies and cocks pass the color the female babies. Does this apply to a mating that involves a grizzle bird?

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Here is an example.Bandit is stork grizzle and Bossy is a blue bar. The first set of babies was a white bird with a blue bar saddle and a white bird with a sprinkling of grizzle. Wouldn't the blue bar saddle have to be a cock? Not sure about the white grizzle.

I think grizzle is a modifier, not an actual color, so there's no way to tell who's a hen or cock. That's MY understanding anyway. You say Bandit is a grizzle but is he a Blue grizzle or a Red grizzle? If he's Blue and Mom is Blue, then they're both giving the color Blue to their babies..............

Actually, Bandit is a white grizzle. Or am I missing something about the grizzle part??

Here is his picture.
http://myviewmytake.wordpress.com/my-pigeons/p1010265/

All righty then............have you been over to PT? It's a mess..........I just went to look at Bandit and I can't see the picture. All I get is a little box with a red x in it.......just like PT.
You know, I'm just plain DUMB when it comes to genetics.......I understand (I think) SOME of it, but not enough to say I really know anything about it.
Blue is a color. Red is a color. Brown is a color. Blue Bar, Blue Check, Dark Check, Grizzle..........are all modifiers of the way a particular color shows its self. If you've got a mostly white bird with a few red feathers, then you've got a red grizzle. If it's mostly white, then people call it a WHITE grizzle, but, to me, that's not right. It's either a red grizzle or a blue grizzle and it doesn't really make any difference (in my mind) whether the bird is 5% blue and 95% white, or 50/50...........
Does that make sense?

Lovebirds wrote:All righty then............have you been over to PT? It's a mess..........I just went to look at Bandit and I can't see the picture. All I get is a little box with a red x in it.......just like PT.
You know, I'm just plain DUMB when it comes to genetics.......I understand (I think) SOME of it, but not enough to say I really know anything about it.
Blue is a color. Red is a color. Brown is a color. Blue Bar, Blue Check, Dark Check, Grizzle..........are all modifiers of the way a particular color shows its self. If you've got a mostly white bird with a few red feathers, then you've got a red grizzle. If it's mostly white, then people call it a WHITE grizzle, but, to me, that's not right. It's either a red grizzle or a blue grizzle and it doesn't really make any difference (in my mind) whether the bird is 5% blue and 95% white, or 50/50...........
Does that make sense?

Yeah, for some reason, PT and the gallery over there is almost unmanageable today. I have uploaded a picture of Bandit to the gallery here and when it is approved, I will post it in this thread so you can see what he looks like.

Ok. Saw Bandit. Yea, he's what I would call a Blue Grizzle.

Lovebirds wrote:Ok. Saw Bandit. Yea, he's what I would call a Blue Grizzle.

Okay, that's just great. That blue bar saddle I named Zorro may turn out to be a hen. He/she will peck my eyes out for that.

Just for my information, why would you call him a blue grizzle?

Because he has blue feathers. Well, actually they are "black feathers" to us, but for pigeon colors, they are blue.

You know, it really goes back to the fact that different people call the same colors/patterns different things. Like the red birds, Mealy, Red Bar, Silver Bar..........three different names for the same colored bird.

Lovebirds wrote:Because he has blue feathers. Well, actually they are "black feathers" to us, but for pigeon colors, they are blue.

Gotcha, I finally see the light.

I wonder if there was a Lady Zorro?

DynaBMan wrote:

Lovebirds wrote:Because he has blue feathers. Well, actually they are "black feathers" to us, but for pigeon colors, they are blue.

Gotcha, I finally see the light.

I wonder if there was a Lady Zorro?

probably more than "a" Lady Zorro....... :lol:

Hi Larry....Bandit is a beautiful pigeon. I would call this a grizzle too but I don't know much about genetics or colour patterns at all. I know a blue bar, white, grizzle, red and black. That's my knowledge of pigeon colours.

Brad wrote:Hi Larry....Bandit is a beautiful pigeon. I would call this a grizzle too but I don't know much about genetics or colour patterns at all. I know a blue bar, white, grizzle, red and black. That's my knowledge of pigeon colours.

Thanks, Brad. He is very beautiful and also is one of my biggest birds. If you look on the pigeons page on my blog, you will find some pictures before and after he moulted. He looks completely different than he did before he moulted.

For those of you who haven't seen him, here is his picture.

Yes...Bandit was VERY different as a youngster. It's funny how colours work. My pigeon Henny who died about 2 years ago was a white grizzle and looked similar to your Bandit. As she got older, she got darker and the grizzling effect become more pronounced. Also, her daughter, Lucy, has the same red colours on her flights as Bandit did as a youngster.

Will try to find some of the older pictures to post.

Ok...here are the changes in Henny as she got older...you can easily see she got darker and more "grizzled".

Brad wrote:Yes...Bandit was VERY different as a youngster. It's funny how colours work. My pigeon Henny who died about 2 years ago was a white grizzle and looked similar to your Bandit. As she got older, she got darker and the grizzling effect become more pronounced. Also, her daughter, Lucy, has the same red colours on her flights as Bandit did as a youngster.

Will try to find some of the older pictures to post.

Ok...here are the changes in Henny as she got older...you can easily see she got darker and more "grizzled".

I didn't realize the birds would change that much over time. It is really strange how that works. Henry is really was a very striking pigeon.

Thanks for the compliments on Henny... Yeah, she was a beautiful pigeon, I miss her lots. Here is her daughter, Lucy...when she was at about 3 or 4 months old and then a pic of what she looks like now. The pic is from 2005 but she still mostly looks like this. You can see how her colouring has changed a lot too.

Brad wrote:Thanks for the compliments on Henny... Yeah, she was a beautiful pigeon, I miss her lots. Here is her daughter, Lucy...when she was at about 3 or 4 months old and then a pic of what she looks like now. The pic is from 2005 but she still mostly looks like this. You can see how her colouring has changed a lot too.

Lucy is pretty as well. She is very different and would certainly stand out in a crowd.

One thing I have read, not sure where, is that red cocks that carry blue will start to show the blue more as they get older. I have a couple of those that should be interesting to watch as they get older. I have only been keeping pigeons for about two years, so I am still seeing and learning a lot of things.

It tends to change the birds over consecutive moults and they tend to become whiter with age.

There is actually no such thing as white grizzle. Grizzle is a modifier which shows up in the form of white markings on birds of other colors. There are all white birds that are actually ash red grizzles but they have been bred completely white over time with inbreeding and just continuing the grizzle gene with ash red birds. These birds will produce ash red young when bred to birds of other colors, or non whites. They are still ash red pigeons genetically, even though they appear as pure white because it (ash red) is their genetic color and it does not change over time.

The bird that you showed, is stork marked, as has been said. It is also blue, as the colored tail feathers look blue, not black and has a black tail band. This type of bird is homozygous grizzle or double factor, pure grizzle. Remember, grizzle is not a color and has nothing really to do with color, it can be on any color pigeon. When you combine grizzle with recessive red, (or yellow) or black (spread) (or dun), these colors tend to change grizzle to mottle and you will see birds with less white and more color and they have a mottled rather than grizzled look. They are still grizzles and bred to blue or ash red and the mottled birds will produce full grizzled birds of blue or ash red. It is the single factor or heterozygous birds that are the heavily grizzled or mottled patterns, when you double up the genes of grizzle, you get the stork marked birds. Either of them can be very beautiful birds. The stork marked birds have been selectively bred to make tail marks such as we see in fantails and some other breeds.

There are actually a few types of grizzles and I'm just beginning to learn about Flash grizzle and Under grizzle. I don't have a very good understanding of either of these yet. I always thought there was only one grizzle to deal with and you could mold it into a variety of appearances. Maybe they've just decided to name these different looks. I don't know yet for sure.

Bill

Brad wrote:Thanks for the compliments on Henny... Yeah, she was a beautiful pigeon, I miss her lots. Here is her daughter, Lucy...when she was at about 3 or 4 months old and then a pic of what she looks like now. The pic is from 2005 but she still mostly looks like this. You can see how her colouring has changed a lot too.

I have rollers like this too. They usually are called torts but it's actually just a combination of blue, bronze, grizzle (maybe t pattern) and probably smokey or one of the other blue modifiers that makes them look this way. Very pretty birds and they do tend to get whiter with age as most grizzles and mottles will do.

Bill

DynaBMan wrote:

Brad wrote:Yes...Bandit was VERY different as a youngster. It's funny how colours work. My pigeon Henny who died about 2 years ago was a white grizzle and looked similar to your Bandit. As she got older, she got darker and the grizzling effect become more pronounced. Also, her daughter, Lucy, has the same red colours on her flights as Bandit did as a youngster.

Will try to find some of the older pictures to post.

Ok...here are the changes in Henny as she got older...you can easily see she got darker and more "grizzled".

I didn't realize the birds would change that much over time. It is really strange how that works. Henry is really was a very striking pigeon.

You've got one that got darker over time as well. In the 03 pics, looks blue and 05 looks black or spread blue. Interesting and probably something perfectly normal that I just don't remember.

Bill