dying young pigeons

dkoehler- Newbie - Egg
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Joined: 2011-01-05
- Post n°1
dying young pigeons
I have bald headed rollers. i have had them since May. 90 % of their young die before they are able to fly.I had 12 young ones within 2 weeks the smaller of each pair died and within 2 more weeks, 1 by1 they are dying. It appears their legs don't work, they can't stand. they are pulling themselves around the nest by their beaks ans wings. Then it appears the parents just quit feeding them and let them die. We thought the parents were sitting on them too much but this past week 4 more have died and they were standing and walking. Parents are all healthy, I am not losing adult birds. no adults have died. They have fresh water every day and I feed them pigeon food with corn. The pigeon coupe is 6 ft wide by 12 ft long. 10 ft high. concrete floor with ground corn cobs on the floor. 40 nesting boxes on the wall. 6 by 5 ft avery, screened in. Any body have any idea what is going on? I am in Florida.

c.hert- Wise Bird
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- Post n°2
Re: dying young pigeons
I am so sorry about your distress and have no idea what is going on but will try to seek out help for you if no one from this forum knows about these things. Its sounds really like something from heritage or something--so sorry....Have you sought out expert advice and do you belong to a roller club there in Florida and are you aware of canker and worms and sicknesses like this having bald headed rollers. I hope someone here on this forum knows about these Bald headed rollers and in the meanwhile I am going to check out a few things. Have you been to a avian vet or could you go but it does sound very different like something they are born with by their genes. I just don't know and I hope people get on this thread real soon. Welcome to our forum and sorry you are under this type of distress and I will get back to you....

c.hert- Wise Bird
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Re: dying young pigeons
I have sent a message to a person by the name of 2y4life and they raise "show rollers" and thats what they call Baldheaded rollers. I sure hope they get back to you on here for they know a lot about your type of roller....I will keep an eye out on you and hope someone here might be able to help you. Do you have a avian vet in your area..?? Hope they respond and I don't really know the people but they know about bald headed rollers...

maniac- Wise Bird
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- Post n°4
Re: dying young pigeons
Can I ask you to begin by telling us what you have done or tried ( medicines eg) so far. what you have discounted as a cause/reason the squabs don't survive and why etc. How are they nested, nest box, nest bowl the material they are in contact with ... Are they genetically closely related, inbred ? ... We need as much info as you can supply in order to make educated guesses that might point to the reason.

Brad- Administrator
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Re: dying young pigeons
Hi Dkoehler,
I'm sorry to hear you are and have lost so many young pigeons.
To me, it sounds very much like paratyphoid or salmonella that is killing the chicks. Oftentimes, only one chick out of the two is affected and gets ill. Also, the leg paralysis is very typical of this disease. I would suggest that you have a few of your adult birds tested (blood and stool) samples to see if they might be healthy carriers of the disease. Sometimes the adults can carry the disease yet remain perfectly healthy appearing. However they will pass the disease along to their chicks either when they are in the egg, through feeding or by fecal matter in the nest.
Paratyphoid or salmonella is often transmitted by mice or rats to the adult birds so you might want to do a thorough inspection to see if there is evidence of those in your coop. Make sure that the screen you are using is 1/4" or smaller to keep them out. Check for any large cracks, gaps or holes in the loft and seal them up.
Another thing I would recommend is to stop breeding your pigeons and until you can find out what is going on with the adults. You've got to make sure they are perfectly healthy first and before restarting any breeding program.
I hope this helps.
I'm sorry to hear you are and have lost so many young pigeons.
Paratyphoid or salmonella is often transmitted by mice or rats to the adult birds so you might want to do a thorough inspection to see if there is evidence of those in your coop. Make sure that the screen you are using is 1/4" or smaller to keep them out. Check for any large cracks, gaps or holes in the loft and seal them up.
Another thing I would recommend is to stop breeding your pigeons and until you can find out what is going on with the adults. You've got to make sure they are perfectly healthy first and before restarting any breeding program.
I hope this helps.
_____________________________________
Yours truly,
Brad with Ricki and Glimmer

dkoehler- Newbie - Egg
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- Post n°6
Re: dying young pigeons
hi everyone, thanks so much. I have been talking to someone from N. Florida who is in a pigeon club he keeps answering my questions but no, haven't gone to an avary vet. He has 600 rollers and is where i got mine. He has suggested in the past to use Sulmet in the drinking water, and Aureomycin.I used them both for 1 week and stopped, saw no difference. i also tried again for 21 days, 16 fl oz. this hasnt helped. They are the worst rollers i have ever had but they seem healthy. Adults are living and seem good, but the babies are just not making it.
Last edited by dkoehler on Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:57 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling)

Brad- Administrator
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Paratyphoid or salmonella
Hi again Dkoehler,
I would strongly suggest you find yourself a good avian vet to help you diagnose simple problems either with fecal or blood tests. These are relatively inexpensive tests and will save you in the end. I feel that you need to have some droppings tested (at least) and from your adult birds to see what might be going on with them. Paratyphoid or salmonella are bacterial diseases that can devastate you birds and might be doing so now.
Sulmet isn't used for treating bacterial infections and aureomycin isn't always very effective against those bacterial strains. Baytril or amoxicillin are the preferred drugs of choice but the birds can't always be 'curred' either. It's also very hard to get baytril nowadays and without a vet's prescription.
Some reading about this from Dr. Gordon Chambers DVM for pigeons:
PARATYPHOID
I would strongly suggest you find yourself a good avian vet to help you diagnose simple problems either with fecal or blood tests. These are relatively inexpensive tests and will save you in the end. I feel that you need to have some droppings tested (at least) and from your adult birds to see what might be going on with them. Paratyphoid or salmonella are bacterial diseases that can devastate you birds and might be doing so now.
Sulmet isn't used for treating bacterial infections and aureomycin isn't always very effective against those bacterial strains. Baytril or amoxicillin are the preferred drugs of choice but the birds can't always be 'curred' either. It's also very hard to get baytril nowadays and without a vet's prescription.
Some reading about this from Dr. Gordon Chambers DVM for pigeons:
PARATYPHOID
The paratyphoid organism found in pigeons is usually, but not always, Salmonella typhimurium variety copenhagen. In fact, in the experience of Dr Gerry Dorrenstein of Holland, 94% of the strains of paratyphoid organisms his group has recovered from pigeons, are variety copenhagen. This variety seems to be almost specific for pigeons, although occasionally, it has been found to cause disease in chickens.
Like other birds and animals, most pigeons exposed to paratyphoid infection recover completely, either through treatment or natural defensive mechanisms, but as in the case of other species of birds and animals, the occasional bird is unable to clear the infection, and becomes a permanent carrier. As Dr Dorrenstein points out, it is still not known just where the paratyphoid organisms hide in the body of a carrier, but he suggests that this hiding place could be within certain patrolling defensive cells called macrophages where they are protected from the immune system. (Note: "macro"means "large"; "phage" is from the Greek word "phagein", meaning "to eat"-- hence, these are large, mobile defensive cells that engulf foreign material, such as invading bacteria, parasites, yeasts etc..) It is obvious that not all engulfed foreign invaders are killed by these large cells, but in some way, the invaders remain alive and isolated within the cells that engulfed them, and here they are protected from other defensive mechanisms in the body. As a result, during periods of stress, the immune system becomes depressed and less vigilant, as a result of which, the paratyphoid organisms can escape from their hidden locations. Once they have escaped, they begin to multiply and then to be shed in droppings from which they are readily spread to other susceptible birds in the loft.
In my experience, variety copenhagen can be sensitive to an unusually wide variety of antibiotics, except in cases in which fanciers have misused these products and have induced antibiotic resistance in these organisms by underdosing the birds in the first place, or by treating for a shorter time than recommended, or both. For this reason, it is often practical to have laboratory tests run to determine the most suitable antibiotics to use.
Treatment of E. coli and paratyphoid infections is best managed through laboratory assessments of antibiotic-sensitivity tests to choose the most effective antibiotic or other anti- bacterial product. Given the general misuse of anti-bacterial products, in some cases these organisms may have developed some level of resistance to antibiotics -- hence the value of laboratory cultures and antibiotic-sensitivity examinations to ensure use of the most effective product. According to Dr David Marx of Oklahoma, USA, all of his isolations of paratyphoid organisms from pigeons continue to be sensitive to Baytril (enrofloxacin), with more than 90% of these isolations also sensitive to Amoxicillin and Cephalexin.
By contrast, Dr Paul Miller of Pennsylvania, USA, reports that his laboratory has isolated some strains of paratyphoid organisms that have developed a great deal of resistance to antibiotics, and that only Baytril seems to be effective in treating these infections. This information points up, once again, the value of laboratory cultures and an accompanying antibiotic sensitivity examination.
In general, Salmonella species are notorious for their ability to transfer from one species of animal to another. However, in the case of variety copenhagen, it seldom ever transfers to other species, and this includes humans. So, in general, the fancier who is experiencing an outbreak of paratyphoid infection in his birds doesn't have to be overly concerned that he will contract the infection himself. However, individuals whose immune system is weakened or damaged should take extra precautions. Nevertheless, for the sake of general safety, fanciers should take normal precautions with sanitation and personal cleanliness while working with an infected flock.
As an advocate of the use of friendly bacteria, also called probiotics, and associated products for a more natural approach in attempting to prevent E. coli and paratyphoid infections in our birds, I have noted that some commercial supply houses are offering products containing the sugar lactose to aid in preventing paratyphoid infections in particular. I certainly support the use of such products and others, in the fight against paratyphoid organisms, but I would offer a few words of caution on the use of lactose when fanciers are dealing with, or trying to prevent, problems caused by E. coli, and even paratyphoid.
To explain in a bit more detail, friendly bacteria such as those in yogurt or in commercially available probiotics, usually include Lactobacillus spp., along with certain species of Streptococcus, sometimes called Enterococcus, etc.. In the USA, commercial products such as PrimaLac and Benebac, among others, are available. No doubt, similar products are available in other countries around the world as well. Some of these products have been developed specifically for turkeys as well as for egg-producing and broiler strains of chickens. Dr Gary Davis of North Carolina State University, USA, has done a great deal of research on the probiotic called PrimaLac in quail, pheasants, domestic ducks, turkeys and laying hens. He reports that his results have been very positive, with the most significant effects being improvements in livability, egg size, body weight gains and immunity. The poultry grade of PrimaLac is available from Bob Adams of Star Labs (Email address : bobadams@siteone.net.)
Certainly, the best source of these bacteria for pigeons would be those derived from normal, healthy pigeons, if such products are commercially available. However, PrimaLac seems very promising indeed, especially because of the range of positive effects found by Dr Davis in several species of birds. It seems likely that pigeons would benefit similarly -- in fact, a colleague of Dr Davis, Dr Mike Wineland, has been using this probiotic on his own pigeons, and swears by it. The organisms in all of these products are believed to have at least two mechanisms of operation in the intestines. Firstly, they can multiply to very high numbers of organisms that form a protective physical barrier that may be up to 12 or more organisms deep, lining the inner surface of the intestines.
Secondly, in the low levels of oxygen in which these bacteria live in the intestines, they produce and release into their environment, lactic acid which of course shifts conditions in the intestines to the acid side of neutral. (As an aside, it is my understanding that, in some countries such as the USA at least, two basic kinds of yogurt are available, one a killed product, and the other containing live cultures of bacteria. Obviously, the product containing live cultures of bacteria is the one to choose. Check the label of the product you buy. As well, remember that because these products contain live bacteria, you must not combine them with antibiotics or any disinfectant, both of which will kill the bacteria you want to use in your birds.)
Now, E. coli and paratyphoid organisms much prefer to live and reproduce in slightly alkaline conditions, whereas in a hostile acidic environment, their numbers can drop drastically (in some studies, up to 97%). In promoting the use of such products, where practical, to reduce the heavy reliance on antibiotics to solve health problems in pigeons, I have been advocating not only the use of probiotics and a small amount of apple cider vinegar (5-10 cc per litre, or 1 - 2 teaspoons per US gallon [4 litres] of drinking water, as suggested by Dr Colin Walker of Austalia) to help acidify intestinal contents, and thereby create conditions that are hostile to the survival of E.coli and paratyphoid bacteria. While I visited Australia last year, I noted that one Sydney- based company had produced for use in pigeons, a powder containing a mix of organic acids that also would be ideal for this purpose. I am sure that other equally useful products exist also.
As well, in dealing with paratyphoid infections, I have also suggested the addition of some lactose to the drinkers, as a source of nutrient for friendly bacteria in their production of lactic acid. Lactose is the chief sugar found in cow's milk, and is available as whey powder from health food stores, cheese and milk factories, livestock feed companies, and commercial pigeon supply houses. As noted by Dr Paul Miller, one problem with the use of lactose is that birds lack the enzyme lactase, and so are unable to break down and utilise the lactose themselves. The presence of this lactose in the intestine can draw fluids from the bloodstream into the intestine, and may result in diarrhoea and dehydration that can add to that caused by the concurrent paratyphoid infection. Fortunately, paratyphoid organisms themselves aren't able to ferment lactose either, which means that they are unable to use this sugar as a nutrient in their life processes. Equally fortunate for us is the fact that the friendly species of bacteria mentioned earlier certainly will use lactose as a nutrient in their production of lactic acid.
Now here is the fly in the ointment, so to speak. It is important to understand that, although paratyphoid organisms are unable to ferment lactose, E. coli on the other hand are known to be lactose fermenters, that is, they actually use lactose as a nutrient in their life processes. For this reason then, it is my opinion that the use of lactose when E. coli infections are occurring should be avoided because this sugar simply aids these organisms to thrive and multiply in great numbers. For this reason, I would NOT recommend that lactose be used in drinkers when birds are affected with adenovirus + E. coli infections, or to help prevent E. coli problems. Yes, use lactose along with probiotics and organic acids,etc., to help prevent paratyphoid infections, but avoid the use of lactose when you are dealing with or trying to prevent E. coli problems.
_____________________________________
Yours truly,
Brad with Ricki and Glimmer

2y4life- Newbie - Egg
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Joined: 2010-07-26
- Post n°8
Re: dying young pigeons
Hello there,
I can almost guarantee you that the reason for your birds' deaths is due to paratyphoid/e-coli breakout. PMV is a usual suspect and can quickly wipeout an entire loft within weeks but since none of the adults seem to go, it is likely paratyphoid.
What you should do is go to a vet and let the vet know that your "pet" pigeons are suffering from paratyphoid and you need baytril. That is likely the only place you can get baytril but you will need 10% baytril. If you cannot get baytril, the second best option is Amoxicillin and you can get that from Foys. Not very expensive but administer asap to all birds including adult birds.
Make sure your loft/cage/kit is critter proof. Alot of times, ecoli/paratyphoid comes from rat urine and what not.
Let me know how things go.
Hey C.Hert, thanks for the email. And yea, I am part of the National Birmingham Roller Club.
I can almost guarantee you that the reason for your birds' deaths is due to paratyphoid/e-coli breakout. PMV is a usual suspect and can quickly wipeout an entire loft within weeks but since none of the adults seem to go, it is likely paratyphoid.
What you should do is go to a vet and let the vet know that your "pet" pigeons are suffering from paratyphoid and you need baytril. That is likely the only place you can get baytril but you will need 10% baytril. If you cannot get baytril, the second best option is Amoxicillin and you can get that from Foys. Not very expensive but administer asap to all birds including adult birds.
Make sure your loft/cage/kit is critter proof. Alot of times, ecoli/paratyphoid comes from rat urine and what not.
Let me know how things go.
Hey C.Hert, thanks for the email. And yea, I am part of the National Birmingham Roller Club.

Carol- Wise Bird
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- Post n°9
dying young pigeons
I do not have but one pigeon, but when I read your post.... just a thought regarding the corn...there is something about corn and mold... you mentioned corn on the floor etc...hope someone else comes along and helps my thought out for you....
Sorry to hear about your loss.... sure hope you can find out the reason....
Sorry to hear about your loss.... sure hope you can find out the reason....

dkoehler- Newbie - Egg
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Joined: 2011-01-05
- Post n°10
still ...more dying young pigeons
Hi. I am getting back to you on the sick pigeons. I used amoxicillan for about 30 days and it did not work. here is a picture. they go along and seem fine then the parents stop feeding and then i see the legs are out.
it is the babies. they all end up this way but the adults are fine. last year in may i bought 20 paired pigeons. i have had at least 40 young ones. all but 2 of the 40 by the time they are able to fly this happens. i am gonna get rid of all the adults and looking for new birminghams. know any one in florida?

c.hert- Wise Bird
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- Post n°11
Re: dying young pigeons
Before you get any new ones you need to solve the problem of the problem of all those pigeons dying Could you take a picture of your loft in Florida so that we can look at it and suggest a better way..something is wrong and like a lot of people ---It may be Salmonellosis (Paratyphoid) and you really need to do some work here on solving that problem . If you get any new birds you need to have them all vaccinated and it would not hurt you at all to get together with other pigeon people to solve this problem before you attempt at any new birds. There is wonderful information on this thread to read as well. If you could post some pictures of your loft and set up it would help us take a look at the environment that these birds are kept in and suggest ideas to you. There are also experts with rollers that could suggest things at well and the last one posted to you that it looked like Salmonella (Paratyphoid). Sorry for your loss of your birds and I sure hope next time around will be better for you and I believe something is wrong with your loft condition to begin---but I don't know--Could you take some pictures so that people can sort things out with you...The problem needs to be solved before you attempt at any new birds.

dkoehler- Newbie - Egg
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- Post n°12
Re: dying young pigeons
ok. i will get pictures of the loft to my album tomorrow. i will let you know when they are there. no, it won't be anytime soon when i get more.

c.hert- Wise Bird
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- Post n°13
Re: dying young pigeons
Looking forward to your pictures and I am glad your slowing down on getting any new birdies...Glad you came back to post and welcome to our forum as well...
This situation can be solved and we all just have to work through it and it might take awhile but it's possible to work through something like this and at least this is what the books tell you but it takes time...Enjoy and relax and study and can't wait for your pictures...
once again...
This situation can be solved and we all just have to work through it and it might take awhile but it's possible to work through something like this and at least this is what the books tell you but it takes time...Enjoy and relax and study and can't wait for your pictures...
once again...

Pigeonmumbler- Newborn Chick
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- Post n°14
Re: dying young pigeons
Hello dkoehler,
Where do you live in Florida?... I live in the Deland FL, Area...!
Who did you buy your birds from???
is he having the same Problems, not to say that such person would be dishonest about revealing the True nature about the Birds he sold you, BUT???... How long have you had pigeons or are you new to the Sport?
Where do you live in Florida?... I live in the Deland FL, Area...!
Who did you buy your birds from???
is he having the same Problems, not to say that such person would be dishonest about revealing the True nature about the Birds he sold you, BUT???... How long have you had pigeons or are you new to the Sport?

copper- Fledgling
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- Post n°15
Re: dying young pigeons
Hey dkoehler,I really don't think there is a problem with your rollers.I've been inbreeding pigeons for 50 years and never had a problem.
I think the problem is in the way you maintain your birds.You are using corn cob on a concrete floor in Florida! When corn cob gets damp, it starts to grow mold.Concrete floors with Florida's high humidity are always going to be damp! breeding ground for Paratyphoid.
You should clean your loft,get a bag of Sodium Bisulfate(pool supply store)and spread this on the entire floor,then get a bag or two of oil dry,and spread this on top of the concrete floor.Get yourself a spray or mist bottle,fill it with water ,add 10 drops of Clorox.Clean your water fountains every day and spray them with this bottle with the clorox.Then dry them and refill them with CLEAN water every day.Do the same thing with your feeders,then fill them with CLEAN food every day.
I think the problem is in the way you maintain your birds.You are using corn cob on a concrete floor in Florida! When corn cob gets damp, it starts to grow mold.Concrete floors with Florida's high humidity are always going to be damp! breeding ground for Paratyphoid.
You should clean your loft,get a bag of Sodium Bisulfate(pool supply store)and spread this on the entire floor,then get a bag or two of oil dry,and spread this on top of the concrete floor.Get yourself a spray or mist bottle,fill it with water ,add 10 drops of Clorox.Clean your water fountains every day and spray them with this bottle with the clorox.Then dry them and refill them with CLEAN water every day.Do the same thing with your feeders,then fill them with CLEAN food every day.

Ed- Racing Pigeon Mod
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- Post n°16
Re: dying young pigeons
If I had to guess I would also lean towards Paratyphoid.
Copper gave you some very good advice.
I personally have two sets of waterers and always have one in the loft for use while the others sit in a 55 gallon trash bin filled with water and Clorox and a lid.
Every morning I switch the waterers out.
It has made a huge difference in my loft.
Copper gave you some very good advice.
I personally have two sets of waterers and always have one in the loft for use while the others sit in a 55 gallon trash bin filled with water and Clorox and a lid.
Every morning I switch the waterers out.
It has made a huge difference in my loft.
_____________________________________
"The difference between a successful person and others is not a lack of strength, not a lack of knowledge, but a lack of will."
Norman Vincent Peale
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Pigeonmumbler- Newborn Chick
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- Post n°17
Re: dying young pigeons
I tend to agree with all the recommendations Copper offered you and I will also add, that I had a friend with a similar problem with his young. He was using a very light solution of malathion dosage to kill bugs in his Loft, the Young where Dieing off a few weeks after they where hatched, showing symptoms, Signs of PMV or Paratyphoid as the possible Culprit. When it really was the Insecticides he was using around the Loft. The older birds tolerated the weak dosage used , but not the Young…???… Or can it also be a really bad case or sign of Calcium Deficiency??? Have you found any weak, small or thin eggs cracked in the nest bowls after just being laid,,,, The young may also start to show signs of deformities if not fid enough Calcium and other nutrients, are you feeding any grit at all….???? I’m not saying that these are the reasons! But just something to keep in mind or ponder???
Louie
Louie

dkoehler- Newbie - Egg
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- Post n°18
Re: dying young pigeons
thank you. I appreciate you. I did have birmingham rollers for 7 years in illinois and had no trouble at all. I got these from a guy from mid florida through a pigeon club. i live in naples. he says i scared him, but his birds are all fine he said. he convinced me i would be just fine with bald headed rollers, but am unhappy not only because of this, but they are terrible rollers. So. I started with a little bit of straw on the floor. which did not get moldy because i changed it regularly. the guys i got the pigeons from told me to switch to corn cobs. but i had the problem from the get go, with straw. I got these pigeons last may 2010. 20 pairs. I have a little bit of straw i do leave in there for nesting, after the young birds are older, i clean it out and put a small amount of straw back for nesting. i am not using insectiside in the water. they get fresh water daily, dish rinsed and washed with a rag. i wonder if my pigeon boxes are too small? 14 inches wide by 9 inches deep. i have 40 of them. i am posting pictured to my album now. i am new at this, but i am sure you guys know how to access them. thanks so much.

Pigeonmumbler- Newborn Chick
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- Post n°19
Re: dying young pigeons
dkoehler, I have just sent you a PM with my Phone number, I live in Florida, Call me so I can give you some advise and Suggestions.... My name is Louie

Carol- Wise Bird
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- Post n°20
dying young pigeons
My heart goes out to you... and the members have given you some good advice... sure hope things get better...


dkoehler on Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:43 am

