Here is one article about a telepathic Parrot



http://www.sheldrake.org/Articles&Papers/papers/animals/parrot_telepathy_abs.html



His whole Web Site would be interesting of course, but, I had been e-mail co-responding with the Parrot's owner prior to and during the experiments, some years ago when I was first on the internet...so that one caught my eye.


Did anyone see the PBS/BBC five part ( was it? ) Series some years ago, called, "A Glorious Accident"..?


The portion ofthe series I found especially interesting was where Rupert Sheldrake and several heavy Science guys were arguing about 'Pigeons', and Sheldrake was saying, "Well, they CAN find their way home, whether YOU can 'explain' it or not", and the other guys were getting realy testy and disissive saying "Well, sure, THEY have 'Magnetite' in their Brains..." ( as if THAT was an 'explaination' ).


So do the 'scientists' for that matter, yet they can not dupicate what a Pigeon can do...


Anyway, that was the first I had heard of Rubert Sheldrake, and he made a good impression...



Phil
l v

Link to a little Video of part of the original 'Glorious Accident' section in which Pigeons were being discussed...


http://nautis.blip.tv/file/377080/


Phil
l v

Awwwwww...how sad...no one was interested???

pdpbison wrote:Awwwwww...how sad...no one was interested???

I just got here after several days away. Looks like they still don't know much beyond what he was describing in the video. I'll have to look at his website. Looks like an interesting guy. I've never heard of him before now.

Peaches

Hi Peaches,



Part of what I found interesting, when I first saw him in the Dutch PBS/NNC Series 'A Glorious Accident', is that when the subject of Pigeons came up, their 'Homing' abilities...all the other Scientists in-effect, wanted only to get rid of the embarassment to them, of not having an 'explaination' or 'model' for it, by trivializing or dismissing Pigeon's abilities with facile quips or perfunctory gestures of a deflective sort.


...rather than pausing to say, or savor...oe ever, ever, to simply say, "I do not know..."


Science, as far as I can tell, as it exists in the personages of 'Scientists', once was interested in inquiry, became too full of feeling as if it's/their role was to 'explain', thus, to be conflicted and dishonest anytime they confront anything they can not explain, or, their 'explainations' are a ruse to get rid of embarassment, at the expense of a subject, and, to insult subjects by trivializing or dismissing them.


Mr. Sheldrake did not seem to know, that 'Mobile Lofts' had been in use since ancient times, and were used in both World Wars, with Pigeons returning to Lofts which in some cases had been moved fifty or a hundred miles since the Bird last saw it.


In the program, he mentioned in passing, the similar ability sometimes seen in Dogs and Cats.


We likely can all remember things on the News now and then, where, a family is moving across the Country, and a Dog or Cat gets lost at a rest stop or Gas Station along the way, sometimes not very far from where the journey began...and...


Six, eight, fourteen, twenty weeks later, the Dog or Cat shows up at the new house...thousands of miles even, from where it had been lost.



Phil
l v

Scientists still don't know how pigeons home although there have been many theories and experiments. The pigeon, unfortunately, gets the short end of the stick!!

May be a combination of factors, but only the pijies know for sure. I once made the humorous comment that Squeaks knows but he's sworn to secrecy and won't even tell me, his mate! :lol:

Don't know if dogs, cats and other animals have the same type of homing ability as pigeons, but they all sure have something.

Mmmm, IF mankind ever figures it out, would we then try and adapt or adopt a way for all of us to have the same ability? Then, again, nothing is impossible...only unknown. And, don't get me started on ESP...

I believe in past lives and nothing seems to illustrate this better than my "opposite" sense of direction! NEVER ask me to navigate unless you want some unexpected adventure in your life! I read that the poles were reversed eons ago! Guess I go waaaaay back, eh??? :lol: Still working...

Love and Hugs
Shi

Hi Phil,

I watched the video and I too had never heard of this Rupert fellow. I think he brings up some very logical and excellent scientific evidence that clearly shows that pigeons' homing abilities can't be explained by any of the previous theories or even combination of those theories. Several of the "tests" that he'd mentioned pertaining to pigeons, such as the frosted contact lenses, dropping them in the middle of the night from planes, putting wax in their nostrils etc., I've heard of. None of these ideas seemed to deter the pigeons from getting home so those theories are "shot".

I'm not so sure I agree with his suggestion though that pigeons or other animals are connected to their homes though. He stated he wanted to do more experimenting with movable lofts and seeing how this idea would work. I think for the most part that animals that do find their homes after their owners have moved are exceptions. I've also heard of cases where dogs or cats find their owners and track them to an entirely new home, but those cases tend to be rare. Even if you just consider the large number of dogs and cats that get lost in one's local area, many of them do not find their way back to their original home, much less a new home that the owners have moved to.

I think the debate and theories will continue for a long time to come and in regards to just how pigeons manage to find their way home, we may never figure this out.

Hi Brad, Shi,



It would be fun to gt to talk with Rupert Sheldrake...


I will suppose he did not realize, that Pigeons reliably were counted on TO find not only Movable Lofts on Land, but, at Sea, since the times of the Ancients, as well as in World War One and Two.


This is alreadywell established - they find their way to "their" loft and r fellows, even when the location is hundreds of miles from where it was when last they saw it.




So, whether 'Loft' or 'Family' or 'Fellows', it is very as what some Dogs and Cats have done, exactly as those instances where, lost at a Gas station in Kansas, the Dog or Cat, seven, twelve, or nineteen weeks later, shows up haggard and thin, in Oakland California, where the family had moved to...never having seen or been to the place before...


My own acceptance, is that the ability or awareness for doing this, or the potential awarenss and potential exercise of ability, exists in probably all motile Species...but, that the conditions in which the potential or actual awareness may be acessed and excercised or acted on, are mutable or vary with both the individual psychology or other interior conditions of an individual, and, with an evaluation or sense of whatever impediments exist otherwise which interfere with or disincline to it's excercise.


Where, of course, also...not all 'lost' Dogs or Cats or all Pigeons would per-se elect TO find or seek out their 'loft', family or fellows when seperated from them...or, may feel that the vicissitudes or troubles how-ever-so, to do so, are not worth the risk or expenditures to follow.




Phil
l v

I agree, Phil. Since we know that animals and pigeons do possess the ability to find their way home, WHY do some DO SO and others, not?

I DO remember seeing the movable loft theory/experiment and the pigeons found those lofts too!

For now, we can only wonder why and let the pijies and animals, DO...

Sooooo many things for mankind to learn...and we will...sooner or later. Of course, there ARE those exceptional (for now) individuals who already tap into unknown/mysterious (for now) realms!

Such fascinating stuff!!

Love and Hugs

Shi

Hi Phil, and Shi...

I disagree and not to be contrary, but I don't feel that the subject of movable lofts has been investigated enough. This concept might not be new and even if tested and "proven" in the past, I don't think this really proves all that much either.

I think a survey would be needed and among the very many pigeon fanciers of the world to see if their birds can even find their original lofts and what percentage of birds do and then a survey to find which birds and the percentage of those who find their way home to a loft that has been moved. Even if one considers the feral pigeon/rock dove; how many times do they return or under what circumstances would their "home" ever be moved to a location 1 mile, 5 miles or 100 miles away? These ancestral birds built their homes and nests on rock cliffs and "homed" back to them, nowadays it's sky scrapers. These locations were never moved and to which they had to negotiate miles of territory to find them again.

The only thing I can compare this to would be migrating birds who find their "general" breeding grounds or even insects that do the same but without finding the exact location of their birth. However, with pigeons and many other species, they are able to return to and choose to return to the exact location where they were born and raise families of their own. Many species find the EXACT location and prefer that to breed again and start new families. Many species of birds even reuse the same nests and nesting sites to begin anew and several species of insects go back to their original breeding grounds in territories that are quite small otherwise.

Even though I do acknowledge and agree there are animals that seem to defy the odds but who do find their homes (moved) and in the case of lost dogs and cats (against incredible odds), back to their owners...I still think these cases are pretty rare.

Brad wrote:Hi Phil, and Shi...

I disagree and not to be contrary, but I don't feel that the subject of movable lofts has been investigated enough. This concept might not be new and even if tested and "proven" in the past, I don't think this really proves all that much either.

Hi Brad, all...



Well, Lofts mounted on Wagons, and later, on Trucks or Trailers, were used in both World Wars, and in Wars before those, and, were felt to be reliable enough for Pigeons let loose from far away elsewhere, to find their way to, to permit Messaging from 'The Front' and so on, or, they would not have used them...


I think that various Navies similarly had situations where the Birds, once released from distal sub-sets of situations, or from Airplanes in peril, were expected to return to the Ship and Loft on Board, however any Miles it may be from when the Bird last saw it, from which they had originated before being sent off to be released for whatever contingencies...to so 'return'.

I think a survey would be needed and among the very many pigeon fanciers of the world to see if their birds can even find their original lofts and what percentage of birds do and then a survey to find which birds and the percentage of those who find their way home to a loft that has been moved.

Yeah...could be done...but, all we would ever know for sure, is...That the individual Pigeons who do return to the Loft, are the ones who returned to the Loft.


I think we do well to be very careful about reading any more into it, than that, as for 'why', or how come...or to impute ability even...even if ability is infered by the success, we now nothing of reasons in weighing the decision.


Too, the Pigeons such people have, would best be contrasted by subjecting honest Ferals living in feral conditions, to the same experiment, and, my bet? The ferals would do better than the long bred Homers...since for one thing, they now how to take care of themselves..!

Even if one considers the feral pigeon/rock dove; how many times do they return or under what circumstances would their "home" ever be moved to a location 1 mile, 5 miles or 100 miles away? These ancestral birds built their homes and nests on rock cliffs and "homed" back to them, nowadays it's sky scrapers. These locations were never moved and to which they had to negotiate miles of territory to find them again.

Yes...in Nature, Pigeons or Rock Doves likely never have any reason to fly very far anyway...and their Nests or Homes are never 'moved'...


Nests are built to suit logistics of close by Food, Water, or other incidental grazing situation's offerings, where, in the Balance, decisions are made about 'where' to build the Nest in relation to accessable resourses of value to them...how far inland lay food and Water, from Rocky Cliffs of the Sea Side, I do not know, but, it might not be more than fifty yards in some cases, if that.


Why or when in Nature, any Pigeon or Dove would have to fly more than a couple miles, other than for fun, I do not know, unless Nesting sites can not be elected closer to acceptable or desireable Grazing and Water situations...


How or why Pigeons are able to 'Home' any better or worse than other Birds, I have no idea...if in fact they do 'Home' any better than any number of other Bird kinds...


...possibly, it is Man's asssociation with Pigeons, which has occasioned the situations in which this ability became known and or relied on...while no occasions or conditions have ever existed for any similar situation to be noted among other Bird Species in such numbers or History of use.


No one releases 'Geese' and times or Races their returns to their Homes, but, probably, one could, and, my bet, is that Geese would do just as well as Pigeons.


My own guess, is that most other Birds could do the same, only, no one ever obliges them to do so, for their abilities to be renoun.


Some Bird Species might not prove talented at it, of course...


So, my impression anyway, is that it is our attribution of this 'Homing' ability to Pigeons, which is consufing a larger and more widespread question, of an ability, at least existing in potential, which is probably distrubuted well among many diverse Species of Creatures, whether their Natural History occasions or coerces them to do much with it, or not.



Certainly a House Cat would not be expected to be demonstrating a continuous Natural History 'talent' which has been needed in their Specie's usual doings, when such a Cat gets lost in Davenport Iowa, by a family moving to Florida, and nine weeks later, the Cat shows up at their Door.


Or, I do not see why 'Rock Doves' as such, would have needed this ability any more or less than anyone else would have, given that they, as most Species, spend their Lives usually in a fairly small area or surrounding countryside, where they as individuals, learn whatever details and features as they find of use or import...and are not likely to get seperated from loved ones by anything other than their own incidental and routine forays which are not especially distal.

The only thing I can compare this to would be migrating birds who find their "general" breeding grounds or even insects that do the same but without finding the exact location of their birth. However, with pigeons and many other species, they are able to return to and choose to return to the exact location where they were born and raise families of their own. Many species find the EXACT location and prefer that to breed again and start new families. Many species of birds even reuse the same nests and nesting sites to begin anew and several species of insects go back to their original breeding grounds in territories that are quite small otherwise.

Yes, 'Trout', 'Whales', Butterflies...on and on...'Migrate'...locating quite narrowly, the places they intend, or, those Species of them which do, do...


I think Butterflies which Migrate have never been to the destination before, since they die every year..where other Species of course get to accompany older members who have been there and back previously...so, while similar or related, it is different also...

Even though I do acknowledge and agree there are animals that seem to defy the odds but who do find their homes (moved) and in the case of lost dogs and cats (against incredible odds), back to their owners...I still think these cases are pretty rare.

I do not think 'odds' have anything to do with it...

I would say that consciousness does...awareness does...decision and intention being acted on in a practical or pragmatic and operatvely necessary and correct awareness, does...


Probably, the real question, is what governs having the awaress to act on it, what governs being aware OF the 'awareness' to act on it...and, what, conjecturally, qualifies the reason motive to act on it.

Certainly, one could havethe awareness to do it, but not elect to do it, also...



We have no way of knowing how many Pigeons or other Spceies who could do it...could do it, but do not feel a motivation to demonstrate doing it...or, possibly, do it with misgiving or conflict or weak motive or changetheir minds mid way.


Pigeons who have never Lived 'In the World' or in the World as anything other than a 'Loft', are not known to manage well if obliged to fend for themselves out in that World...yet, also, I am sure, very sure even, that some of those Pigeons once 'out' realie they would prefer to stay 'out', and, either find success, or, vicissitude.


This does not mean they could not manage the ability to come 'back'...but rather, thatthey did not elect to do so...


So, we only know that some members of various Species, have shown or demonstrated the success with the 'ability', or, have done it.

We know little or nothing of those who could do it, could have done it, but, elected not to.


And within that, probably, Pigeons have been known to do it fairly reliably, because people have been asking or coercing Pigeons to do it for thousands of years, where, no similar condition has been imposed on Geese, Cats, Dogs, Horses, Cows, Sheep, Elk, Elephants, Buffalo, Hippos, and so on, though instances of their doing it, are well known to have happenned because of accidental or other seperation from those whom the Animal felt were their 'family'...and to whom the Animal wished - we must pesume - to return to or be re-united with...whatever their location may have been.



Phil
l v

pdpbison wrote:

Too, the Pigeons such people have, would best be contrasted by subjecting honest Ferals living in feral conditions, to the same experiment, and, my bet? The ferals would do better than the long bred Homers...since for one thing, they now how to take care of themselves..!




We have no way of knowing how many Pigeons or other Spceies who could do it...could do it, but do not feel a motivation to demonstrate doing it...or, possibly, do it with misgiving or conflict or weak motive or changetheir minds mid way.


Pigeons who have never Lived 'In the World' or in the World as anything other than a 'Loft', are not known to manage well if obliged to fend for themselves out in that World...yet, also, I am sure, very sure even, that some of those Pigeons once 'out' realie they would prefer to stay 'out', and, either find success, or, vicissitude.


This does not mean they could not manage the ability to come 'back'...but rather, thatthey did not elect to do so...


So, we only know that some members of various Species, have shown or demonstrated the success with the 'ability', or, have done it.

We know little or nothing of those who could do it, could have done it, but, elected not to.


And within that, probably, Pigeons have been known to do it fairly reliably, because people have been asking or coercing Pigeons to do it for thousands of years, where, no similar condition has been imposed on Geese, Cats, Dogs, Horses, Cows, Sheep, Elk, Elephants, Buffalo, Hippos, and so on, though instances of their doing it, are well known to have happenned because of accidental or other seperation from those whom the Animal felt were their 'family'...and to whom the Animal wished - we must pesume - to return to or be re-united with...whatever their location may have been.



Phil
l v

Hi Phil,

The first point you've responded to and that I've underlined, I definitely agree with you on that.

Your last commentary about various animals generally not been given the same chances/opportunities as pigeons have for several thousands of years in cahoots with man, I'll also agree with as well.

Overall....you bring up excellent comments, and arguments all around. I commend you on your astute observations and insight

Isn't it trying to know why and how some animals and birds have a very developed sense of direction the same as wanting to know the same thing about humans?? I know that if after walking for sometime in a forest I'm left alone to find my way out I would be completely incapable of doing it while my husband can "navigate" without a compass in very extensive forests in France, USA or Germany even if they are new to him. I can get lost driving in a town if the oneway streets take me out of my intended way!!
We know the extraordinary achievements the human race is capable of, be it intellectually or physically. But that doesn't mean that we are ALL capable of the same achievements. We are also different in the acuity of our eyesight, hearing, tact, smell, intuition, our physical sthrength and even our capability to persevere. Don't animals and birds also have these differences? Now, as to know WHY ...........Gladys