Just thought I'd post a couple of tonight's snap shots of a youngster doing the 'Shot Glass Seed Gobble'.


He took to this instantly and did not even care about my keeping my finger-tips on his Beak-sides, as usuall they would.


Anyway, for anyone caring for a Baby or Youngster Pigeon, this is easy to do, and is a very good way not only to feed them, but, usually, it soon progresses into their 'pecking' the Seeds also...and how 'soon' soon will, varies with the individual.


If the Baby is say a week to ten days old, usually they will prefer the Seeds be in a 'slurry' of tepid Water or 'Gravy' of 'K-T' or other...and they will not 'peck' for a while yet.


Once around two weeks of age or so, they tend to prefer it to be 'dry' as these are, or, at least, they take to it 'dry' just fine, with Water being offered also of course as a seperate matter. And, at that age, they can learn to peck successfully according to their individual tendencies, and this can be like right-now, or, over a few days.


In fact, this little one, can empty the Shot Glass of Water in about one and a half seconds.


And, though not pecing yet, can empty it of Seeds, as far as his 'gobbles' can reach anyway, in about fifteen seconds...leaving maybe barely 1/4 inch of Seeds in the bottom, which are too low to 'gobble'.

'Gobbling', of course, is their manner of opening-and-closing their Beak for eating food in their parent's Throat.


We have been doing this now for three days, being as I got him three days ago...and today he was tentatively 'pecking'.


Others, of say two weeks of age or so, I have seen go from 'gobble' to 'pecking' tentatively to pecking sucessfully, in fifteen minutes of getting here...so, every one is different as for how that goes.


Older 'Squeakers' who for having been seperated from their parents, can be pretty hard to win over as for feeding, tend to take to this method very well.



http://public.fotki.com/PhilBphil/august-23rd-2008-peeper/



They sure do PUSH with those little Legs of theirs, too..!



Phil
l v

Thanks for the tip Phil I've got 3 month old pij that I'm still doing AM hand feeding because he refuses to eat enough seed.

I keep a dish of seed in his cage that I peck in with my fingers, I hand feed him about 2 Tbl. spoons of soaked seed twice aday and my office dove Raven gets him to peck for seed, some of the small seeds he does eat, but not enough to keep him full.

I'm going to try your shot glass feeding.... now to go buy a shot glass!

EgypSwiftLady wrote:Thanks for the tip Phil I've got 3 month old pij that I'm still doing AM hand feeding because he refuses to eat enough seed.

Hi Robin...

You've got a 3 month old pigeon that is still not eating properly??? This is not good. I would recommend stopping the hand feeding and for the pigeon's own good. I'm a bit of a "toughy" when it comes to things like this but I think it's truly best for pigeons to be weaned much earlier than this.

My hand raised runts were very difficult to wean and they were very stubborn as well. I took them home from Mary's house at around 2 months of age and Mary was still supplementing them too with hand feedings. When they got here, there were no hand feedings because I knew they could eat on their own and if they wanted but were just being very fussy. It's like they don't want to grow up when they are hand raised sometimes and as long as you feed them, they seem to lack the motivation.

When I took Lucy & Ricky home from Mary's, they each weighed around 800 grams each. During about another month or so of "tough love" they lost about 300 grams each. At this point I believe they got hungry enough and were tired of being hungry and then they finally decided to start eating enough and different types of seeds.

I Know it's worrying but I really do believe that the earlier they are weaned, the better. It's just not natural for them to be hand fed for so long and I used to preach about this a lot on P/T. I hope that you might consider practicing some tough love too and get that youngster eating on his own.

Phil,

That little wing holding onto your wrist is just too cute.

Linda

Hi Robin...

You've got a 3 month old pigeon that is still not eating properly??? This is not good. I would recommend stopping the hand feeding and for the pigeon's own good. I'm a bit of a "toughy" when it comes to things like this but I think it's truly best for pigeons to be weaned much earlier than this.

My hand raised runts were very difficult to wean and they were very stubborn as well. I took them home from Mary's house at around 2 months of age and Mary was still supplementing them too with hand feedings. When they got here, there were no hand feedings because I knew they could eat on their own and if they wanted but were just being very fussy. It's like they don't want to grow up when they are hand raised sometimes and as long as you feed them, they seem to lack the motivation.

When I took Lucy & Ricky home from Mary's, they each weighed around 800 grams each. During about another month or so of "tough love" they lost about 300 grams each. At this point I believe they got hungry enough and were tired of being hungry and then they finally decided to start eating enough and different types of seeds.

I Know it's worrying but I really do believe that the earlier they are weaned, the better. It's just not natural for them to be hand fed for so long and I used to preach about this a lot on P/T. I hope that you might consider practicing some tough love too and get that youngster eating on his own.[/quote]


I know, I know Brad, not good I'm bad, but.....

I tried the "Tough Love" , this pij lost too much weight so I started hand feeding again. I've had his poop checked for parasites and it was negitive, hes in good feather, has energy, etc. so I know its not a physical problem. He pecks and 'mouths' the seeds but doesn't eat enough, I let our dove eat with him...
you know "monkey see, monkey do", well he ain't no monkey and pijjie won't do!
I'm trying to get his weight up to do the 'Tough Love' again, but in the mean time I'm gonna try Phils shot glass tip.

Hi Robin,

Well, I hope it works out and before the youngster is a year old, lol. Good luck seriously but still.... for shame on you.

I think the biggest problem people have with weaning a baby that is hand fed is they wait too long to introduce the seeds. I've hand raised about 10 babies and every one of them, with the exception of one was fully weaned and eating on their own by the time they were 16/17 days old.
At about 8 to 9 days old, I start popping seeds in their little mouths before they get the formula. If they were with the parents, they would be getting seeds at this age. You do that for a week and as soon as they can stand up some, put a bowl of seeds in front of them and "play" in them and they learn to eat pretty quickly. If you do this, there's no "tough love" needed. In fact, I always have to take the seeds away from them, because they don't know when to stop eating and will literally stuff themselves and that's not good either.
But Brad, I'm like you. I believe in the tough love approach too. I guess we racing fanciers use it to train our youngsters, so it's a bit easier for us to deal with it.
Will the bird loose weight because it won't eat and you won't feed it? Sure it will, but it won't starve to death and that weight can be put back on in no time flat and they're no worse for the experience. IMO.

Lovebirds wrote:I think the biggest problem people have with weaning a baby that is hand fed is they wait too long to introduce the seeds. I've hand raised about 10 babies and every one of them, with the exception of one was fully weaned and eating on their own by the time they were 16/17 days old.
At about 8 to 9 days old, I start popping seeds in their little mouths before they get the formula. If they were with the parents, they would be getting seeds at this age. You do that for a week and as soon as they can stand up some, put a bowl of seeds in front of them and "play" in them and they learn to eat pretty quickly. If you do this, there's no "tough love" needed. In fact, I always have to take the seeds away from them, because they don't know when to stop eating and will literally stuff themselves and that's not good either.
But Brad, I'm like you. I believe in the tough love approach too. I guess we racing fanciers use it to train our youngsters, so it's a bit easier for us to deal with it.
Will the bird loose weight because it won't eat and you won't feed it? Sure it will, but it won't starve to death and that weight can be put back on in no time flat and they're no worse for the experience. IMO.

OK, sooooo I'm a big push over! I already know that and every animal that lives here is spoiled too! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Lovebirds wrote:I think the biggest problem people have with weaning a baby that is hand fed is they wait too long to introduce the seeds. I've hand raised about 10 babies and every one of them, with the exception of one was fully weaned and eating on their own by the time they were 16/17 days old.
At about 8 to 9 days old, I start popping seeds in their little mouths before they get the formula. If they were with the parents, they would be getting seeds at this age. You do that for a week and as soon as they can stand up some, put a bowl of seeds in front of them and "play" in them and they learn to eat pretty quickly. If you do this, there's no "tough love" needed. In fact, I always have to take the seeds away from them, because they don't know when to stop eating and will literally stuff themselves and that's not good either.
But Brad, I'm like you. I believe in the tough love approach too. I guess we racing fanciers use it to train our youngsters, so it's a bit easier for us to deal with it.
Will the bird loose weight because it won't eat and you won't feed it? Sure it will, but it won't starve to death and that weight can be put back on in no time flat and they're no worse for the experience. IMO.

Hi Rene,



Good mentions...


Yes indeed, in the Wild, or when raised by Pigeon Parents, once six days old or so, the Babys are being fed 'Seeds' by their parents, and I feel we do weel to do likewise.


Usually, I just add small whole Seeds to their formula, and once about two wees of age, I either start the 'Shot Glass Gobble' or I interest them to start pecking if they like.

And either by seeing other older PIgeons pecking, or that and seeing me pretend 'peck' with my crooked index finger, they get it figured out and of course they really enjoy their success, little Wings flapping, 'peeping' and so on with great enthusiasm.


When I get in orphan fledglings, these Pigeons will sometimes refuse the 'Nipple' and the formula, and or have long since become very used to what their parents were doing, so it is harder for them to be flexible in what they will accept.


But, 'Seed Pops' and 'Shot Glass Gobble' usually work well for these, and typically they start pecking right away or soon-enough for everyone to be happy.


I have found also, that as far a Pigeons raising Babys in here...when I set a little Bowl of Seeds for the sitting parent, once the Babys are over two weeks old, they also will be pecking the Seeds right along with mom or dad...and as you say, one has to monitor these youngster's self-feeding in any context, or else they can and reliably will over-do it..!


I have never once seen any 'weaning problems'...even if of course every youngster is an individual and or will acquire pecking skills at their own pace.


Some youngsters just do not open their Beaks enough when trying to peck, and these can be the slowest to find success.



Too, the 'Shot Glass Seed Gobble' has been very useful for PPMV PIgeons either young or old, who can not peck otherwise, but, if their Head is steadied and the glass held for them and so on, one can soon work it out for them to sort of 'gobble' and fill themselves nicely...and or, one can steady their head over a small deep Bowl of Seeds, and orient their Head vertically with one's fingers, and they can then peck with success while being held to do so.




Phil
l v

pdpbison wrote:

Lovebirds wrote:I think the biggest problem people have with weaning a baby that is hand fed is they wait too long to introduce the seeds. I've hand raised about 10 babies and every one of them, with the exception of one was fully weaned and eating on their own by the time they were 16/17 days old.
At about 8 to 9 days old, I start popping seeds in their little mouths before they get the formula. If they were with the parents, they would be getting seeds at this age. You do that for a week and as soon as they can stand up some, put a bowl of seeds in front of them and "play" in them and they learn to eat pretty quickly. If you do this, there's no "tough love" needed. In fact, I always have to take the seeds away from them, because they don't know when to stop eating and will literally stuff themselves and that's not good either.
But Brad, I'm like you. I believe in the tough love approach too. I guess we racing fanciers use it to train our youngsters, so it's a bit easier for us to deal with it.
Will the bird loose weight because it won't eat and you won't feed it? Sure it will, but it won't starve to death and that weight can be put back on in no time flat and they're no worse for the experience. IMO.

Hi Rene,



Good mentions...


Yes indeed, in the Wild, or when raised by Pigeon Parents, once six days old or so, the Babys are being fed 'Seeds' by their parents, and I feel we do weel to do likewise.


Usually, I just add small whole Seeds to their formula, and once about two wees of age, I either start the 'Shot Glass Gobble' or I interest them to start pecking if they like.

And either by seeing other older PIgeons pecking, or that and seeing me pretend 'peck' with my crooked index finger, they get it figured out and of course they really enjoy their success, little Wings flapping, 'peeping' and so on with great enthusiasm.


When I get in orphan fledglings, these Pigeons will sometimes refuse the 'Nipple' and the formula, and or have long since become very used to what their parents were doing, so it is harder for them to be flexible in what they will accept.


But, 'Seed Pops' and 'Shot Glass Gobble' usually work well for these, and typically they start pecking right away or soon-enough for everyone to be happy.


I have found also, that as far a Pigeons raising Babys in here...when I set a little Bowl of Seeds for the sitting parent, once the Babys are over two weeks old, they also will be pecking the Seeds right along with mom or dad...and as you say, one has to monitor these youngster's self-feeding in any context, or else they can and reliably will over-do it..!


I have never once seen any 'weaning problems'...even if of course every youngster is an individual and or will acquire pecking skills at their own pace.


Some youngsters just do not open their Beaks enough when trying to peck, and these can be the slowest to find success.



Too, the 'Shot Glass Seed Gobble' has been very useful for PPMV PIgeons either young or old, who can not peck otherwise, but, if their Head is steadied and the glass held for them and so on, one can soon work it out for them to sort of 'gobble' and fill themselves nicely...and or, one can steady their head over a small deep Bowl of Seeds, and orient their Head vertically with one's fingers, and they can then peck with success while being held to do so.




Phil
l v

yea, all of my babies see Dad and Mom eating from day one........well, when they open their eyes anyway...
A bowl of seed is kept right by the nest bowl from the time the eggs are laid....they do learn very quickly like this.

[quote="Lovebirds

yea, all of my babies see Dad and Mom eating from day one........well, when they open their eyes anyway...
A bowl of seed is kept right by the nest bowl from the time the eggs are laid....they do learn very quickly like this.[/quote]


Good idea Renee I never thought of that but will try it with my 2 oopies.

As of today, little 'Blue' who shares a Cage with an older convelesing and very tolerant Hen, is pecking up a strorm out of the Hen's Seed Bowl...


Lol...


So, since I was expecting this anyway, it is a very small Seed Bowl and was only half filled anyway...but, it was funny, the Hen was trying to eat, and he was crowding her out with his enthusiastic pecking and having his Head right over it so she could not even get anything.



Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh golly...well, maybe have to set little 'Blue' elsewhere so she can eat too..!


Normally I just have any 'Peepers' or 'Squeakers' in an open or non-cage Nest up on a Table or other, but there are too many Pigeons in here now for that to be safe...so, when he is not with me, he is in a Cage with the gentle Hen who is getting over a broken Thigh.



Phil
l v

While we are on the "feeding" subject I have always been intrigued by the recommendation to feed kitten chow to very young pigeons. But doesn't kitten and puppy chow contain meat? I have never had to feed a tiny pigeon baby but I try to bear in mind how it is done should the situation ever arose. I have never seen any kitten or puppy chow without meat in France. Gladys

Gladys Chardon wrote:While we are on the "feeding" subject I have always been intrigued by the recommendation to feed kitten chow to very young pigeons. But doesn't kitten and puppy chow contain meat? I have never had to feed a tiny pigeon baby but I try to bear in mind how it is done should the situation ever arose. I have never seen any kitten or puppy chow without meat in France. Gladys

Hi Gladys,




Good subject to discuss..!


Sadly, the hear-say of 'Dog Chow' has probably killed more Pigeon and Dove Babys than it ever aided.


Vets making casual asides, rumor, hear-say, "P-T", endless repeating the truely 'bad' advice of this, and omitting the only salient portion of information the advice could have contained to be other than horrible and dangerous.


"Grain Based Kibble" ( soaked till soft and puffy, then cut into TINY pieces, and fed gently for the Baby to swallow ) is what probably was originally meant, then it got translated into 'Dog Food', 'Cat Food'...or if possibly only a little less horrid, "Dog Chow" or "Cat Chow".


In theory, or in practice, a non stinking, non meat-rancid, truely "Grain" Kibble, 'Hard Tac', or related, can be soaked till soft and 'puffy', cut into tiny pieces, and fed to a Granivorous Bird Baby.


"Milk Bone" Dog Bisquits which are of the old kind being made only from Grains...

Or...

"Walter Kendal Fives" or other W-K Kibbles which are entirely Grain products, would be best if one were to do this.


These never 'stink' if rancid fats...because they contain none and contain no 'meat' related products.


Most everything else, is full of horrible ingredients, highly processed 'meat' ( meaning whatever was 'below' the threshold of 'hot dogs' ) from downer cattle, dead zoo animals, road kill etc...and rancid stinking animal fats and so on, and is toxic to Bird Babys of any kind...and of course the canned 'meat' paste, is lethal to Granivorous Bird Babys...and would probably be lethal or at least highly compromising to about any other kind of Bird Baby also.


Part of what goes so wrong with this, is people hear or are told, "Oh, just feed 'em Dog food..." or, "Just feed 'em 'Puppy-Chow'.


So the person force feeds dry nuggets of this stuff, forcing it down the Baby's throat with a Pencil's blunt end, lacerating the Throat and killing the Baby.

Or they get canned Dog Food and force it down however so, Pencils, finger tips, who knows, causing the Baby to die in a few days that way.


On and on and on...


Possibly, if one was not interested to feed a Baby Dove or Pigeon with an easy home made formula which can be made from things any Grocery Store will have, letting the Baby eat formula volentarily from the hollow of a regular people-baby-nipple, then, "Milk Bones" of the old style kind which were only made of Grain, would do...or depending on the age oft he Baby and his condition, just letting him 'gobble' small whole Seeds however so, one could break up some 'Milk Bone', soak till soft and puffy, cut up into tiny bites, and gently put far enough into the Baby's mouth for him to swallow.


I would think, one could also just get a little box of 'Grape Nuts' Cereal, soak it, and find it to already BE in 'tiny bites'.





On and on and on...


There are many foods which will work fine pro-tem, if one gets a hungry Baby on a friday night, has little to nothing on hand, and can not get to any decent Grocery or Pet Stores till the morning.


Too, over and over and over, on 'P-T' and elsewhere...a person finds a Baby Bird, and fifteen minutes later is force feeding who knows what kind of garbage, all in a haste, all in a huge compulsive hurry...never bothering to even see if the Baby is still full from it's parents, never bothering to wait a little to find out more...unconcerned about dehydration having priority...


Oye...


Anyway...


I get kind of passionate about this...


Love,



Phil
l v

Hi Phil,
Many thanks for your prompt reply and the extensive explanations on this touchy subject. I am so glad that I asked the question. This has been trotting in my mind for quite a long time. At least now I know what I should NOT do. Unfortunately I don't know the equivalent in France for the products you mention (Hard Tac, Milk bone Dog buiscuits, grain based kibbles) but I will try to find some kind of grain based mixture for kittens if that exists here. In fact none of the formula and other foods mentioned in these forums exist in France. Unfortunately where I live there are no pet shops neither are there any avian vets. I would hate to be caught unprepared if ...................... I will do some more research and see what I discover if anything. Thanks again Phil. Kind egards, Gladys

Hi Gladys,



Expedients in exigency of course are one order of practice...while, preperation, experience and sustainable recourse, is another.


And in this, definitely, many people find themselves with Infant or Baby Colmbiformes of one sort or another, and, in wishing to care for them pro-tem or longer, have to come up with both what to feed the Baby, and, how to do so.


The age of the 'Baby' of course is a factor in what it can handle well nutritionally or in food-kinds...as is the condition variously of any Infant, Baby or Youngster.



Any 'processed' grain-based foods will have forfeited a good deal of Nutriton for their bulk, compared to 'raw' and wholesome Grains, Berrys and Greens.


But, none-the-less, processed Grain Based foods of wholesome kinds, will work very well for feeding these young Pigeons or Doves, and ideally, one would move on to better food types in the following days by searching out what one needs.



As for what would be readily available in European or Latin Countries, which would be useful for feeding Infant or Baby Columbiformes...hmmmmmmm...



"Graham Crackers"...


Plain, old fashioned, 'Cooked' Cereals which one would not cook of course, for this use...but, things like "Malto Meal"..."Roman Meal"...''Cream of Rice"..."Cream of Wheat"..."Ralston" and so on...


"Swiss Museli" also, if one could grind it in a little Coffee Grinder into a powder, to then add Water or Oat Milk or Rice Milk, to make a 'formula' that way...which then can be fed out of a regular people-Baby Nipple or Rubber 'Teat', using the Hollow side of it to be a soft, flexible 'cup' ino which the Youngster inserts his Beak...


This takes a little finess to do well, but, once understood, is easy...and works very well.


Originally, all I used to do for feeding Orphan Babys and Infants, was to grind up some Graham Crackers, add some fresh Ground Seeds I would grind in an old hnd crank little Coffee Grinder, add some plain 'Malto Meal' and, adding Water then, I would feed them using the 'Nipple' and it worked very well and everyone loved it and grew up perfectly.


Later I started adding fresh ground small Berrys also...such as 'Goji Berrys' and or 'Elderberrys' and of course Lingonberrys or any edible Berry once semi dry or dried will work fine also for being ground ito Powder along with some wholesome Seeds ( at the same time, or else the Berrys just bEcome a viscous mush..! ) , or, fresh ones cup up into tiny bits added to the formula is excellent also.


So...in a pinch, if the Baby is more than say six days old, then, Graham Crackers and Malto Meal and even whole un-ground Canary Seed, mixed together with Water, served in a Nipple, works very well...or even just holding the Seeds in one's fingers in a way where the Baby can 'gobble' them, or, useing a Shot Glass for the dry Seeds to be 'gobbled'.


Keeping pre-endothermic Babys adequately 'warm' is very necessary...as is ensureing they are in fact thoroughly warm before beginning to feed them...as is ensuring they are adequately hydrated before any feedings...and on from there.


Feeding a chilled or dehydrated Baby can cause them to sicken and or perish...



Phil
l v